Jan, To me the time frame of the new Satanic Production Slick does not seem fit in the sequence of dates. Is the date of August 15th 1967 correct ! Putting aside the debate on the Padded silk and Octagonal "designs".
The factual dates on the UK Test pressings read 30th October 1967 and a receival date of 15th November 1967. On the Bell acetates it is dated November 16th 1967. My question is how could finished artwork with song titles in place be confirmed nearly 2 to 3 months before final Test cutting. Also "Cosmic Christmas" is still included on the Bell's. Also in your information the band was still recording up to the 7th of September.
Is the date 15th of August on the slick or I sugguest it be another date. cheers Peter
Peter, I have had exactly the same thoughts. August do not seam to fit into the time frame. The thing is that the first handwritten number is a bit unclear and I cannot see what it is. The suggestion of 8 for August was done by Jeff Gold who have been the previous owner of the item.
Another thing that I have reflected over is this: Where did the actual design of album covers take place? In US under Kleins control or at Decca? Seams as if we have a lot of work going on in US on this LP but nothing has surfaced from UK. Jeff also told me that the same person who originally had this item in the 60's, also had "work in progress" stuff for Beggars Banquet. We do know that the Beggars Toilet cover is existing in a London version as well as an Decca version.
So, my question would be: Who had responsibility for album design and was decisions taken in US or UK
Jeff's stuff is always on the money and the best provenance you can get , but I think the date must be closer to end of October/early November.
I am sure both sides of the Atlantic would of been working closely on this important release ,aswell as heavy involvement from Jagger and the rest of the band. Just the cover shoot alone would of been more work and effort than they would of done for any other LP. Officially where was Kleins main office ? No doubt there would of been more imput and dealings in the US with Vari-Vue being an American based company. Maybe one day someone will shed some more light on the design side of things.
I have spent a lot of time and money over the last few months trying to get an answer to a lot of questions about the Silk Sleeve. Its been on my mind after having seen an example around 13 years ago. As I have stated before on this board it looked very genuine and well made but I had no more info on it. So I used a different method in trying to track down on this item, a method that could be used to track down other answers to questions about any other artist or label. What I am about to say is that one must remember, people and companies involved in this or any other record have either no interest or dead. The people involved in this kind of work are no different to others in other industries. They go to work, clock on, bitch all day and cant wait to go home after receiving shit wages. They never were thinking they were putting together a possible future collectors piece, it was just a job, employees come and go and were dealing in a lot of other artists. So what better way to track something than forgetting the label or the artist and doing the logistics of a project(and thats all it is) I have been in touch with companies in US/UK and Australia regarding transport logistics(media, movement,tele)No one either new or were interested. I started here because I thought this info would give me a good handle to start with on my thoughts that the timeline that has been corelated so far with letterheads, studio work etc were an absolute mess and did not reflect on what was transpiring and leads me to believe that the silk sleeve was just a piece of marketing bullshit to keep some employees on their toes so to speak. My belief is that the bosses or just one boss decided that some new production ideas were needed to correct some falling sales overall(remember they were dealing in dozens of other artists and the Stones were just another commodity) So departments in all other countries were asked in their marketing or PR office to come up with an idea using silk as a medium for a possible sleeve for a new product to be forthcoming for the Stones new album. I will come back to this point later in this post>When one considers the time required for studio work, mixing,acetate,plate development,test pressing,sleeve printing,distributing, production,transport,retail,different countries. Such a complex contract as a silk padded sleeve is impossible to market in such a timeframe, particularly when they needed to get it to market quickly. My belief is that the end result was allready determined before people were asked for their ideas. Hence different styles of silk have appeared from different people from different places but were relegated to the rubbish bin,except for an octagonal idea that was used for a later product.Different(3d or plain)sleeves for different countries can be explained thus; Australia for example had no sleeves available from Aussie printers so sleeves both mono and stereo were flown to Oz from Robert Stace printers in UK for the first issues( a system that was duplicated for High Tide and Beggars)these had the 3d pic. Also 3d pics could not be produced and delivered to other countries quick enough so later issues of OZ sleeves did not have them when our printers finally solved their problems. Vari-Vue who had the patent for the 3d pics 2.815.310 were not the only ones cabable of reproducing it, they probably out sourced to another company.My experience in mass production(albeit in another industry) tells me that this idea happens all the time. So my friends I would say that the Silk Sleeve allthough important to the big picture of Satanic, was nothing more than an idea and hence could never be considered as a Promo or issued with a Cat #(Cat# for Necrophilia is something else again)If I ever find again the Silk Sleeve I saw, I will mortgage the house If I need to(just joking) or at least photograph it, I wont stop looking. If someone can correct my theory I would be most pleased or add to it. Lets not just forget it. Whiskey. Some new info has just been received and if its genuine I will add it.
Post by janrichards on Mar 11, 2012 13:10:33 GMT 1
Good comments whiskey. I also think that the silk version was just one of many suggestions on how to make the sleeve spectacular. Just a WIP (“work in progress”) item from the planning stage of the sleeve. This was in no way any promotional item from the record company's side at all. But it has been escalated to a legendary “Promotional Item” through the years as everyone reads magazines and books claiming that it does exist and if it was not sold, then it was a promotional item. Time is changing facts about history in many ways. Like, people today think that Beatles was far better and bigger that any other band in the 60’s when we all know that there was another band that was just as big and even bigger in the polls in 1965. ;D There are even people who think that Elvis was a great artist , but let’s not go into that discussion
My point is that time has made a production suggestion into a legendary promotional item
Interesting comments Whiskey , I know this Satanic Padded silk is very close to you since the day you first saw it in the auction that day. We all can relate to the saying “would of , should of , could of ”.
I would like to state again for the record , I believe it was Kevin who first showed us all a crude mock up of the Padded silk that he made around 4 years ago, based on what he saw in Perth many years ago. I know myself had heard stories of this item but never came close to ever seeing a photo or even description. No-one knew what it looked liked and hence assumed just a story.
The only thing I ever saw many years ago was a low res paper image of the “padded” silk but it did not look a thing like the current one. It was a silk type slip bag or pouch that covered the whole LP and had a pull string tie to tighten. At least that is what I thought it looked like. When I saw Kevin’s version , it was like wow ,that is what it is. I get the concept.
My point again being no-one ever showed us anything of this version until Kevin’s mock –up and pic . I’ll stand corrected if anyone can show me information confirming otherwise. There was much discussion about it over different forums , including this one and also ridicule aimed at both the item and Whiskey’s version of events.
Since the UK copy recently appeared many collector’s seemed to jump for joy on it’s “discovery” but not once did I see anyone say congrates to Whiskey or well done mate ,we now believe Ya !!! or it now confirms all your recollection’s. Quite ironic we now have a couple of other “leading” collectors recently stating they now have a copy of this Padded silk version !!! Funny how they never showed a glimpse of it ,simply to confirm it’s existence to all of the collectors worldwide !!!
Next time I am sure you will have better judgement to whom you share your info with !!! -Lurker alert-
Well done mate and I hope one day you can put your mind to rest and get another glimpse of that copy you saw, or better still be in a position to buy it. In the mean-time a belated . Thankyou for your original research of this version of the Padded silk…………
Post by janrichards on Mar 13, 2012 16:06:47 GMT 1
Really hope you will be successfully in the search of the item you saw that day! These adventures are really the injections we need to keep the hobby alive. We know that we do not have everything and there is always more to look for. Especially in your case as you have seen it!!!
Regarding the pink silk padded TSMR, I must say I have grown suspicious of this item. Why? Because the silk is in near mint condition. Just does not make sense! Maybe I am wrong. But can someone explain to me how it would last so long, in great condition?
The octagonal TSMR in Koala's collection is very interesting. Well done Koala for recently discovering the link between this sleeve and the octagonal motif in the inner-sleeve design! And the octagonal images in the vintage TSMR songbook means we must seriously consider the octagonal sleeve as a prototype (but the idea was abandoned & later used for TTPD). Keep in mind Decca have a history of recycling sleeve ideas for later releases... see Beggars & Stone Age.
But of all the TSMR contenders, I must say the "Silk Lettered" TSMR looks totally fake to me. I have always been shocked that this item has been taken seriously by collectors. There is no way the lettering was made by a professional designer. The psychedelic letters are inconsistent with each other, and look homemade. However, I'd love to be wrong on this. What do we know about this item? Is there evidence (eg: paperwork) to verify it?
Hi Bolexman, yes the pink one is not quite like I saw, but as I had added in my post was that my theory is that different people came up with different ideas from different places. I agree it looks in extremely good condition but then, why not. I must totally agree with you on the silk lettered version, the fact more than one of those has surfaced smacks of being the most obnoxious fakes of all time or several attempts by the same person in PR to piss someone off. Regarding the difference between what I saw and the pink one is the silk on the one I saw was white or like a cream but not squarish, sort of rounded over from the edge of image to the edge of sleeve. I should try and take more time to do a better mock instead of being in a hurry. As Jan has said an idea has turned into myth has turned into fact. Through the Past Darkly should have been named From the Past Darkly